Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

I mean,that's a given. But what does that have to do with its viability? Lando's as splashable as it was 6 months ago. Gliscor being better on stall doesn't mean that Lando is less viable as they're not doing the same stuff.

If you agree with it moving, there's no problem with that, but it needs to come down to the trends of the metagame, not down to its intrinsic qualities.


my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
subtox isnt relevant to gliscors rank its a super terrible set that only puts in work in a few select matchups and lets too many things in for free.

gliscor is generally just kind of a niche mon. It does an ok job of keeping a few threats in check and thats pretty much it. idk why people think gliscor breaks stall lol it gets pp stalled by the combination of mons like amoonguss, skarm, and quag pretty easily and taunt and/or tox variants lose to mega sableye. Ive never really seen it as particularly good or useful and its not a major threat to most builds; i honestly think it should have dropped a while ago.
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However, I do think Landorus is more of an offensive mon, whereas Gliscor is a more defensive mon.
I believe that most of the time Lando-T plays a pivotal or passive role rather than offensive. It's offensive variants are earth Plate and RP+SD, which are less common than defensive and scarf.


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Kind of agree with Mana to A+

It's a mon which is capable of beating just about anything slower than it, which is pretty nuts. Bulky offense is pretty popular, and often features a backbone of a few slower mons to sponge hits and provide utility. Manaphy essentially steamrolls this half of any bulky offense (bar Ferro if non HP Fire) and is still pretty difficult for faster mons to switch into. Combined with great bulk and defensive typing, its extremely difficult to revenge kill. The most common check to Manaphy, Latios, fails to OHKO with LO Draco Meteor, while Specs variants lack the recovery to stay healthy for Mana later on.

The matchup against bulky playstyles has been beaten to death so I won't go into that. Mana is really just a strong holepuncher while also being a solid win condition against teams that lack a lot of speedy mons. Even HO doesn't like to switch into it.

The most relevant comparison is to Keldeo which is an A+ water type wallbreaker as well. I could go into all the pros and cons but I think those have been elaborated upon ad nauseum at previous points. Manaphy is simply consistent, not extremely predictable in terms of coverage, and difficult to KO from full. Its not matchup proof, but has the opportunity to put in work in just about every match. I don't think Keldeo is a full subrank better.
Hera shouldn't drop, stall is way more common atm and hera can greatly deal with it. For me both slowbros should drop, they lost many space now to be considered high ranked as they are now. Alakazam, Terrakion and Gliscor shouldn't drop. Gliscor is a great stall breaker though it may be overshadowed by other things, it also gives an enormous support and is a great momentum keeper, Terrakion just puts up a hole on everything that dares to switch in and Alakazam i'm not that sure but at least my experiences with it show that this thing is a monster and considerably splashable.

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--->A: Agree
The issue with Heatran is that it isn't nearly as effective at its role as a stallbreaker due to how difficult it is to stallbreak with Suicune and Dugtrio becoming so much more common on stall, limiting Heatran to 1 kill, maybe less if they use Baton Pass with Shedinja properly or get Dugtrio in on a double. My biggest issue with Heatran is that it ends up being useless in matches more often than it used to be before. Heatran certainly isn't a bad Pokemon as it brings so much defensive utility to the table along with a Magma Storm set that ABR stall despises facing, but several metagame trends such as DD EQ Zardx and Surf Latios becoming more common really hurt Heatran and limit its effectiveness.

--->B+: Agree
Gliscor isn't really good in any matchup except vs bulkier teams, so it ends up becoming dead weight a huge portion of the time. Not to mention that stall more commonly runs mons like HP Ice Zapdos, Suicune, etc. that didn't exist before, making Gliscor's job significantly more difficult as a stallbreaker. Gliscor isn't a terrible mon by any means, but the sheer magnitude of games that it literally can't do anything in is insane and crazy to consider. Also, stop comparing this thing to Lando-T, they share the same typing, but that's literally where the similarities end between the two, they check completely different Pokemon defensively and using Lando-T as a Heatran check or Gliscor as a Zardx check is just asinine and stupid.
--->A+: Agree
Manaphy is still the undisputed best breaker in the tier. Facing Manaphy at team preview is the worst thing for most fat teams to face. Its ability to be customized according to your team's needs is amazing, and it can shred through any bulky team it goes up against with ease. The influx of things like Suicune and passive Toxic users in general on stall that functions as setup bait for RD Manaphy, which means that Manaphy can set up with little to no worry about being beaten. Everyone and their mom knows Manaphy tears apart bulkier teams, but Manaphy still does super well vs offense, smashing through the lazy msciz/latios/landot BOs, especially if paired with TTar since Latios doesn't wanna just switch in and take an ice beam to the face when you're against Lando-T, meaning that you will probably be able to pick up a kill, so considering that it's really solid in almost every MU, Manaphy is more than good enough for A+ rank imo, maybe even S, but I don't wanna push it.
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I see where you people come from about Heatran, but I've ever wondered why they don't run WoW more often. I've been playing with WoW specially defensive Heatran for a while and I think it's great. It totally screws up Shedinja/Dugtrio. WoW Heatran can actually destroy Dugtrio's sash and eat an Earthquake, killing him next.
I know it sounds stupid, but you can even run Toxic alongside WoW, so it can cripple both Zards and other fire mons. Magma Storm - WoW - Toxic - Protect brings hell to any opposition w/o Heal Bell.
The only mons that can reliably (and completely) counter this are EP Heatran and Gliscor. TW Magic Guard Clefable is a great wall/check, which kinda sucks, since Heatran was supposed to counter or at least check this. Clefable and Gliscor don't like Magma Storm though.
Apart from those three nothing, I think, is safe switching in.
So, I'm no authority to decline my view on a mon viability rank, but I think Heatran is as fantastic as ever.
I, too, wonder why more ppl don't run wisp on Heatran, as he's a fantastic user of the move, crippling common offensive switchins like lando, chomp, bisharp, lopunny, medi, the mega bugs. Not to mention you beat mega sab by giving yourself flash fire and proceeding to blow it out of the water.
That said, I use tran on basically every team, and it is a little bit harder to use it effectively. Surf lati@s has been significant, as the latis used to be one of the main things tran checks. The rise of Manaphy (20% usage) hurts it as well. And dugtrio, which is basically used to kill heatrans, is incredibly hard to play around, and basically means you're not gonna get to use tran til it's dead.

Agree Heatran -> A
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I agree with Manaphy to A+. Stall / Defense is one of the 3 most basic types of team. Any poke that can completely shut down one of those general styles with nothing more than 2 turns to set up is nothing to be scoffed at. For some stuffs, let me show you examples of Manaphy destroying stall.

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 210-247 (32.7 - 38.4%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
Against de blob at +3 in rain, mana will probably 3hko, and accounting for soft-boiled and the fact chansey can't poison mana, mana as a pretty good chance of winning a 1v1

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Mega Sableye in Rain: 291-343 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Against one of stall's premium megas, Mana will probably ohko, and remember Mega Sableye can't burn Manaphy.

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Mega Slowbro in Rain: 201-237 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Manaphy 2HKOs Mega Slowbro. If Mega Slowbro manages to get a calm mind up, it'll be a 3HKO. May not necessarily be the greatest matchup but whatever we take what we get

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable in Rain: 372-438 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Under most circumstances, Manaphy can beat Magic Guard Clefable.

252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Unaware Clefable in Rain: 178-211 (45.2 - 53.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even with Unaware, Manaphy can kill Clefable faster than Clefable can kill Manaphy, not taking into account Soft-Boiled.

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 192-227 (63.3 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Obviously, Rotom is going to Volt Switch, so it may not be a good idea to switch-in on Rotom-W, but being able to beat it if it switches in on you is not something to scoff at by any means.

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 244 HP / 48 SpD Tangrowth in Rain: 325-383 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Interesting observation here is Psychic does the exact same amount of damage as Scald, so assuming you want to use psychic, knock yourself out. Keep in mind Tangrowth has Giga Drain. If you want Ice Beam to be your coverage move, that's also an option.

Agree on Manaphy to A+
What are everyone's thoughts on Slurpuff? I think it's got some usability that warrants a low ranking. Usually set up on choice locked-in mons, Lati@s at -2, or predictable status moves. I've had some good times with the little guy and its come in clutch in quite a few occasions. I'm sure Slurpuff has been discussed at length before so I won't provide too many calcs:

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 163-192 (44.9 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Notice I'm using an Adamant nature. And here are two replays, wish I saved more or had more time to battle right now:


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Dude, your Slurpuff literally did nothing but set up in the first replay and critted its way to victory in the second. Overall, Slurpuff is good on paper, but is riddled with flaws and shouldn't be considered for any serious team. Setting up can still be a difficult task, especially considering the 50% drop in hp and the prevalence of hazards, and Azumarill usually does better as a physical fairy due to better natural bulk, actual immediate power, stab waterfall and aqua jet, and a better belly drum set due to the above mentioned factors. You also have the fact that any of the meta's bulky grasses (Amoonguss/Tangrowth) tank a +6 play rough and can retaliate with paralysis, sleep hax, clear smog, or giga drain. Slurpuff can put in work against unprepared teams, sure, but teams are so prepared for fairies that it really doesn't deserve placement unless its in D, which is still a stretch.
Setting up in a scenario where if I had not been faster than Scarf Landorus I could have lost.

In the second replay Slurpuff avoided an otherwise unstoppable Bisharp sweep and without missing a Play Rough could have possibly beaten Venusaur anyway because Synthesis has only 8 PP but the take away is stopping Bisharp.

Obviously Azumarill is way a better physical fairy and Pokemon than Slurpuff, that's not even a competition. But Belly Drum Azumarill loses to certain mons that Slurpuff doesn't, like full health Lati@s, Manaphy, Keldeo, basically whatever is faster than it and can survive a +6 aqua jet and deal enough damage back. And Slurpuff can sometimes afford to take more residual damage (Rocky Helmet) than a Belly Drum Azumarill due to Drain Punch. So I'm just saying that Slurpuff has a niche (I'm not saying that you should start using it over Azumarill). Thanks for your thoughts :)


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I respectfully disagree with your proposal to rank Puff, but I can understand your arguments. My thought process is that if it isn't a mon one should ever, ever consider for team building (in terms of building around/preparing your team for) then it shouldn't find placement in the VR, which is exactly why I think some of the horseshit in D like Mega Ampharos, Rhyperior and Tyrantrum should go unranked, or some slightly decent things in D like Cress and Sylveon rise to C- while any that don't rise leave the VR alongside the D rank in general (also why I think Puff should refrain from being ranked) .
I agree with Hilomilo. Yes it's great that you can 2HKO defensive mons such as M venu and Skarm but Slurpuff can't afford to both take a hit and then not be able OHKO the opponent. Sure if it gets a free setup the calcs work, but almost nothing in the tier gives Puff a free setup. That's why it shouldn't get a rank. As Hilomilo said, good on paper but not in reality
What are your guy's opinions on forretress? i'm kinda suprised he's not on the list at all, given the niche of being a hazard setter of Sr or either spikes, hazard remover and momentum gainer in volt switch all in one. Course he's probably not gonna be above B tier due to ferrothorn being such a solid option, but I feel like his role compression could deserve some merit
What are your guy's opinions on forretress? i'm kinda suprised he's not on the list at all, given the niche of being a hazard setter of Sr or either spikes, hazard remover and momentum gainer in volt switch all in one. Course he's probably not gonna be above B tier due to ferrothorn being such a solid option, but I feel like his role compression could deserve some merit
The main reason why forretress probably isn't mentioned is because it's so outclassed by other mons on the things that it can do. Forry has (mostly) 2 jobs, suicide lead or a as you said more of a support bulky mon. While it's movepool is great it lacks recovery which makes it very hard to live up to all the potential that it's moves gets it. Without recovery (not taking lefties to a count) it gets chipped very fast, by defensive mons like lando or chomp which it should be able to handle and therefore can't really do it's job properly. Compared to ferro (acess to leech seed) and skarm (roost) it just isn't good enough. Forry also kind of struggles with the steel nerf from 6:th gen.
While the suicide lead forry is great ( being able to take fake out+ hjk from mega lope=
(252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Forretress: 165-195 (63.4 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
It gets so outclassed by skarm and most certinly azelf that it's not worth running. While forry may give you spikes, skarm and azelf can prevent you opponent from getting them up with fast taunts.
I can agree that it's pretty rough to not even include forry, based on the things that you said but unfortunately it just has other steel mates that does the job better than it :(


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Forretress is really fucking bad. It is passive and invites everything in the game to set up in its face 'cause it has literally no way to punish it, and it is a mediocre spinner and as a Spiker it is outclassed by both Ferrothorn and Skarmory. As a Toxic Spiker it faces heavy competition from Tentacruel, Dragalge, Coffagrigus and even Nidoqueen (and also T-spikes is mediocre atm). It is easily worn down as it lacks reliable recovery (it only has Pain Split), and unlike Ferrothorn it can't put pressure on the opponent with Leech Seed. It just doesn't really do much, and its a liability more often than not.

As for Slurpuff it is just a really shitty cleaner who can't set up on anything remotely offensive and hasn't seen any noteworthy tournament or ladder success. Given that the standards of D rank are higher now than they were a few months back, Slurpuff was never ranked when they were lower and nothing has really changed to make it better, I don't see any reason why it should be ranked when other things with better niches aren't.


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Yeah Slurpuff is not gonna be ranked. It sets up on virtually nothing in the tier and its mediocre defenses leave it quite vulnerable to priority anyway.

I think it's time to start looking at Zapdos to B+. This mon has gained a ton of traction both on stall and more offensive builds. I dont think Latias or Hippowdon are better (though they could potentially drop), but I also think Zap is more likely to put in work than just about every mon in B rank at this point. Dragonite, Alakazam, and Reuniclus are examples of B rank mons which are solid in their own right, but haven't really had the success or metagame impact Zapdos has had lately.
I have a question about Mega Sabeleye. I'm not noming it to S but why is it not S? From my understanding it's pretty widely agreed that Clef is the best mon in tier but Mega Sabeleye is the one being suspected. I'm not saying it should be S, but if it's strong enough to get suspected then it should be S should it not?


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Not really. Mega Sableye isn't being suspected due to being overwhelmingly good or stupidly centralizing, it's being suspected for being unhealthy. There are quite a few better mons, just none that have the same effects as Sab. I'm not gonna ramble because you can read the suspect thread yourself for more info but this post by abr explains the reason it's being suspected pretty well, even if you disagree with it.

Slurpuff can't set up on anyting and doesnt even auto win if it does set up, and forre is passive as fuck trash. Neither should be ranked. Zapdos could probably also be upped it's a really good mon and is undervalued by the vr rn, also the static set is amazing as one of the few things to dissuade tornt and other u turners from just pivoting on your team
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I have nothing but absolute respect for the amount of time and effort the council has put into making this the best ORAS OU vr thread yet, though I feel as though there are a few pokemon that seem out of place within their respective rankings and could most definitely drop or rise. Here are some of my thoughts.

Azelf up to C+/B- Azelf's become THE suicide lead for both bird spam and hyper offense as of late, and has become more effective and adapted well to methods to deal with it. Skill swap is fantastic against Mega Sab and Diancie and can guarantee that you'll get rocks down, and taunt and explosion are both extremely valuable tools that allow Azelf to soften up its opponent and put them in revenge range for a partner or shut down potential set up sweepers or hazard setters. Much more valuable to offensive teams than anything in C is to their respective archetypes.

Mega Gardevoir down to B+ There really isn't any denying that Mega Gard's been gifted with the ability to plow through specific archetypes, though if Mega Alakazam is to drop to B+, this should too. Mega Gard has really been hurt by recent meta game trends, as scarfed physical attackers (mainly Excadrill and Rachi) have become more common, and the rise in bird spam can also be problematic. Overall, Mega Gardevoir's still great, but is stuck in an average speed tier and has a mediocre defense stat that hasn't helped it to prepare well for the increase in priority and fast physical attackers (whereas Zam has a few tricks up its sleeve).

Zapdos up to B+, Mega Manectric down to B. When comparing these two electric types, you'd find that one has been adapting to the metagame really well in recent months while the other hasn't. Zapdos' ground immunity, multitude of viable offensive and defensive sets, and ability to blanket check everything that's on the overwhelmingly omnipresent bird spam is an absolute blessing for teams atm, whereas Mega Manectric doesn't have that ground immunity to take care of scarfed Lando-T and Exca, can't pull off any sets well bar one, and takes up the mega slot you could be using for something else alongside just using Zapdos. Overall, Zapdos has been able to deal better with the rise in scarfed ground types and other metagame trends that have hurt Mega Manectric, and has less opportunity cost than Mega Mane even when its rocks weakness is considered. This one is to me, a matter of underrated vs overrated, and underrated should definitely win right now.

Manaphy up to A+ This one's been getting a lot of really valid discussion as of late, and there really isn't much more to say other than what's already been said. Manaphy is essentially the killer of all things slower than it, and can tear apart just about any archetype with either of its sets. Please move up, it's amazing how influential this thing's been lately.

Gliscor down to B+ This one's a little controversial rn, but there's no denying that Gliscor has lost some effectiveness recently. It's automatically prepared for, seeing as how every team carries ice coverage for Lando-T nowadays, and while the two are only similar in terms of typing, Gliscor's still hard to justify for a teamslot since Lando-T can compress so many roles and to put it on your team with Gliscor would be stacking weaknesses in a hilariously awful way. It's also worth mentioning that Gliscor only matches up well against bulkier builds and stall, which are beginning to find reliable ways to deal with it. Overall, the thing's just not as effective as it used to be, and has no business in A- alongside things like Serperior and Skarmory that aren't similar to Gliscor but have remained a lot more consistent and adaptable.

These two down to B Yeah, this one's old news by now. Mega Venu comes with more opportunity cost nowadays due to the greater amounts of utility and better abilities that both Amoonguss and Tangrowth provide your team with, as Tangrowth is better vs. sand due its actual ability to resist ground attacks, and Amoonguss' room for either more status than just sleep hax or clear smog allows it to provide your team with both a bulky grass type and status spreader. As for Mega Bro, it's just really weird in that you could just use Slowbro alongside another Mega and that it's CM set is completely stopped by any kind of status whatsoever. Please drop, they're just as effective as pretty much everything in B right now.

these two up to B. Duggy's ability to trap and kill big threats to stall like Heatran and Alakazam is just ridiculous, and it's quite capable of contributing to other play styles too, which sounds a lot better than what the other B- mons are bringing to the table. Then there's Diggersby, who was just recently nommed to rise by Sketchup, who provided us with some awesome calcs and proved that Diggersby is quite deserving of the hype other slow wallbreakers in Crawdaunt and Nidoking are getting. Not sure how to link Sketchup's nom, but its on page 43, so go check that out if you'd like more clarification, which you shouldn't considering how much better this thing is than everything in B- but Dugtrio.

Cobalion to C/C+ I've continued to make this nom and will until I at least know why nothing has been said about it. Cobalion is so much better than all the crap in C-, as while it isn't fantastic, it can provide your team with an impressive amount of role compression. Fast taunts, volt switches and stealth rocks are always nice, and the ability to check big threats to offense like Weavile and Serperior before a boost should allow for Cobal to be at least C, where it isn't AS criminally under ranked.

Edit: Suicune could also rise, but this is one that I feel really shouldn't need an explanation due to the council literally stating that they were looking to move Cune up soon.
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Banned deucer.
you don't just nom mana up and venu down in the same post

venu should definitely stay a- because compared to amoonguss and tangrowth, it checks so much more threats reliably that they either fold to over the long term or just flat out lose to, some examples are diancie, mana (less psychic ones since ib picks off amoong), keld, suicune, not to mention its a lot harder to reliably keep in check since its p solid offensively and a lot of teams just run things like jirachi or latios and expect that to deal with venu despite more of them running knock off or other good moves like sleep powder.

also i've been saying this for a little while, but i could probably see mana in s as opposed to a+. its extremely good at what it does and people just seem to be neglecting it more and more or running shaky answers to it such as spex lati which lacks the recovery to come in more than a couple of times. i honestly think its one of the most potent mons in the tier, and is far and simply put, its the best stallbreaker in the tier because it does its job so effectively and is so difficult for fat teams to reliably keep in control. there's also other things like the massive constrain for balance teams because literally nothing stops it from running that one specific combination that completely fucks up your team. although it lacks the nice defensive utility keldeo offers, mana makes up for this just by being an offensive monster.
I think that Zapdos should be higher up (B+). It's has a very unique role as a defoger with great bulk and few weaknesses. It fits on many playstyles such as a bulky defoger on stall and a agility sweeper on hyper offense. The 3 attacks+roost set with static is also very good, punishing stuff like torn-t and ando from u-turning around on your team. The 3 attacks zap (electric attack, heat wave, HP ice) also lures the opponent in a false sense of security since defog+roost+2attacks is common, so they wont expect the 3:rd coverege attack if you have already reveald 2. I can't really say how good zap is in tournament play, since I've never tried to compete in one


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Zapdos is a very solid 'mon rn. I think the Electric type's biggest strength atm is on its defensive qualities (namely being resistant to one of the most dangerous types in the game (Flying)), and a big part of why electrics are falling out of favor is because most of them are offensively-inclined. Zapdos' real strength comes from its incredible dual typing, which provides it resistances to incredibly common types in fighting, steel and ground, as well as a U-turn resistance which--if used alongside Static--allows it to heavily punish Pokémon who like to spam said move while also being one of the few Pokémon which can paralyze Choice Scarf Lando-T (the best speed control in the game). Static in general is a pretty underrated set, because while it does sacrifice the ability to use Defog it is just really nice for allowing you to potentially cripple a large number of Pokémon like Jirachi, Talonflame, MPinsir etc. just by switching in on them, and it also allows it to pressure stuff like Mega Lopunny and Tornadus-T much more consistently too. And this isn't even to say that Pressure is a bad ability for it. It is able to pretty easily bait and stall out stuff like Stone Edge with Roost while also taking good advantage of its typing to stall out the offensive PP of stuff like Ferrothorn should it lack Heat Wave.

I think that it's utility on Tele stall is definitely a big point in its favor too. This team has seen a lot of success on the ladder and in OLT, and Zapdos is a major part of why this team is able to function. It is also a really good stop to xtra chirp$, being one of only a handful of consistent answers to birdspam, and as such being able to give this team a headache is really huge in general. Being one of only a handful of quote-on-quote "good" Defoggers (Defog Lati@s is dookie, and considering the other good/decent options for hazard clearance are Skarmory, Starmie and Excadrill (the former is only decent on stall and latter is only a decent spinner because it compresses roles) its niche in the role is very clear-cut) is a further point in its favor, and a Spikes immunity is super nice Beyond this, it is just a really versatile Pokémon with lots of utility on all of offense, balance and stall, as such I agree with the rise.
Zapdos is B+ material at this point, its just that imo it has to choose whether to stop birspamm or to defog. Birdspamm can overwhelm it thanks to Azelf leading with SR. If its double defog or the static set that issue is irrelevant and birspamm cries. Unlike Rotom-W, the second bulky electric of OU, it has reliable recovery which is pretty huge and its movepool makes sure that only a few mons in the tier can get in without paying for it. Martin said the rest already.

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